Mario | La esquina del rol: Zach Hazard Vaupen! Welcome to La Esquina del Rol! I'm looking forward to talking to you. You're a fascinating artist. You illustrated the covers of my two favourite games: Fallen and Liminal Horror. But, before I ask you about those two covers and your art in general, I want my readers to know Who you are and What you do in relation to the TTRPG indie scene.
Zach Hazard Vaupen | Emo Sludge: Hey Mario! Thanks for having me. Thanks for the kind words about my work! I’m a freelance illustrator, mostly for TTRPGs, and I also make comics when I can. I’ve been working on TTRPGs for almost 4 years now and have had the wonderful opportunity to work on many great games like Mothership, Liminal Horror, Fallen, and various 3rd party projects for the games mentioned above as well as DCC, Mork/CY Borg, OSE, and possibly others. I’m starting to lose track! Right now I’m working on the Liminal Horror Deluxe Edition with the rest of the LH crew, as well as a Mörk Borg setting of my own design (with help from Micah Anderson) called Frog World which will be published by Exalted Funeral.
Mario: Hold on! I'm going to have to skip some questions out of curiosity and come back to them later, hahaha! But why haven't I heard about this setting before? What can you tell us about it?
Zach: Oh yeah I only just announced it last week, so you got the first scoop. There’s still a lot of work to be done on it, mainly on my end, but I was approached by Exalted Funeral at the end of last year to work on a supplement for any system I wanted. I picked Mork Borg and started developing ideas for a setting I decided to call Frog World. We hired Micah Anderson to further develop and expand on the concepts I’d already developed, which they’ve completed their part at this point (quite spectacularly) and right now I’m editing it and continuing to expand and write more myself as I work on the layout and the art. It will be a fully illustrated setting with 20 new enemies, several different species, new spells, a big hexmap with tons of keyed hexes, and 2 major dungeons: Frog Heaven and Frog Hell. I’m not totally sure on the release date yet, but it will hopefully be out either by the end of this year or the beginning of 2025. Here’s a couple pieces of art I finished from the bestiary which I already shared on social media:
Copyright by Zach Hazard Vaupen
Mario: The art is amazing!!! I love your style! You have me hooked already! But, would you mind tell us what is the pitch of the setting?
Zach: Of course! It all takes place on Frog World, which is a floating interplanetary open air prison, its main operation taking place in its bowels (Frog Hell) and ruled by an overclass who live on a luxurious satellite orbiting Frog World called Frog Heaven. PCs essentially wake up to discover they’ve been kidnapped and imprisoned on Frog World for various trumped up charges and are doomed to explore (and possibly escape) the awful Frog World where everything is frog themed and gross.
There’s a lot of NPCs (other prisoners) of various species and factions from other planets Frog World has also visited, so there’s a lot to do there.
Mario: That sounds super cool! I'll be looking forward to it, Zach! It's exciting news. Well, back to you and my initial questions. You're a freelance illustrator doing some very interesting things in the scene. It's very noticeable the unique style you have. I'd like to know what are your artistic influences that you recognize so far?
Zach: I always have a lot of trouble answering this question because my influences are so varied and different things have influenced me at different times in my life. I really love horror comics from Japan, which probably is the most apparent influence on my style. Suehiro Maruo, Katsuhiro Otomo, Kentaro Miura, Kazuo Umezu, Taiyo Matsumoto, Usamaru Furuya, Kengo Hanazawa, Inio Asano, and Junji Ito are all big influences on me from that world (I could list more but for the sake of brevity…). I also really like underground comics from North America and Europe too. Lots of artists that worked on Metal Hurlant are big inspirations for me as well as a lot of the artists who were in the Fort Thunder collective or have worked with Le Dernier Cri in France. I also love horror and sci fi movies. David Cronenberg and David Lynch are both big for me. I’m also obsessed with the films of Gakuryu Ishii and Shinya Tsukamoto. Lots of video games too. And too many of my peers to list, but my illustrator and cartoonist friends are all my biggest inspirations. I frequently share their work on my social platforms. I could really go on endlessly so please stop me.
Mario: Hahaha yeah, yeah, it's a difficult question because we don't stop taking influences from various things; but it's a way to portray yourself in a moment. You know, like a picture. Something that We explore in these interviews is creativity and the creative processes that our interviewees. Maybe this is another tough question hahaha but, I hope we get to some very interesting ideas, How do you approach your creative process when doing what you do?
Zach: At this point in my life and career, I have a good handle on what I enjoy drawing and the types of images I want to make. So it’s not too difficult to come up with ideas for drawings. I usually start with really loose sketches—putting in the details and objects I like to draw—and that helps me start seeing what the picture will be and ideas start to really flow. If I’m really having trouble thinking of what to make, I’ll refer to a document of random ideas and notes I jot down when they occur to me and that is really helpful. If you ever have a good idea, write it down! You never know when it will come in handy. I also keep a Pinterest board of references and stuff to inspire me. I’m not great at keeping or collecting reference though compared to a lot of artists. I often search for reference materials at the last minute. This is what led me to learning 3D modeling. I always do 3D modeling and sculpting for the base of my drawings. I find that it helps me create my own reference material and it gives my art a more stylized and unique look. I like my art to have a lot of form and depth and texture, but I’m not interested in realism really. Here’s an example from a recent piece I made for my patreon subscribers showing the 3D base and the final drawing:
Copyright by Zach Hazard Vaupen
Sometimes if I feel really creatively burnt out, I’ll enter a period I call “inspiration mode” where I just watch movies and play games and read books as much as I can to kind of refill the creativity tank.
Mario: The way you handle the depths blows my mind. The reflection of the mirror encapsulating you inside the scene and showing all that depth. It's crazy. I don't know much about art because I'm not an artist, but when your Kitty passed away (I'm really sorry for that loss) I noticed you using 3D to model an image and it became very interesting to me. Also, I noticed that you started sharing very interesting pictures on twitter, I remember a picture of Winnie Pooh. Besides photography, what other artistic expressions have you had with your art?
Zach: Yeah after the passing of our cat (Fanny) I found it hard to work for a bit, but needed a creative outlet so I started teaching myself photography. When I’m down or in a rut, I always find that learning a new skill is really helpful for me. I also went to school for printmaking so I love making prints (screen prints, relief prints, intaglio, etc). Before the pandemic, I ran the design department at a large format print shop, so I used to experiment with scraps from jobs we couldn’t use for anything else to make really interesting prints cut to shape on rigid materials like plexiglass and pvc/sintra. I also like to write of course and I’d like to find time to paint again. I know how to hand bind books and sew and knit. I built the bed I sleep in. I think I just love making things and want to know how to do everything eventually. Next I want to learn video editing.
Mario: Video editing, that’s sound very cool! Hmmm… What are the 3 pieces of art you have made that are your favorites and why?
Zach: I’m bad at favorites haha, but if forced to pick from my portfolio, I like these 3 pieces because they do a really good job of showcasing both my abilities and my taste. The first is a piece I made early on for the Mothership Warden’s Operation Manual (I think, it could be in the PSG, I forget), the second was a piece I made for my patreon subscribers, and the last of course is the cover I did for The Mall for Liminal Horror. I had a lot of freedom in all these pieces so they really feel like me and what I like to make.
Copyright by Zach Hazard Vaupen
Mario: I love what you have picked! So It is inevitable that I would ask you about this. I'm a big fan of Liminal Horror and I'm looking forward to the deluxe edition. I've seen the preview of the new cover in my last interview with Goblin Archives and the changes are striking, although the essence remains. How have you approached this revisitation of your own work?
Zach: I’ve had a lot of people tell me that the original cover for Liminal Horror really set the tone for how they view and approach the game (and I’ve also had a lot of people tell me it’s their favorite rpg cover), so I knew that for the deluxe edition I didn’t want to stray too far from the original artwork, but I also wanted something that felt…well “Deluxe”. I felt like making things spiral out more could give a more interesting composition, and I thought I could push the depth and “coming at you” feeling by having the art breaking out of the frame. Otherwise I just added stuff I thought would be fun. Things occur to me as I work. Otherwise I think of everything going into the deluxe edition as a continuation of the work we’ve been doing rather than a reimagining of it.
Copyright by Zach Hazard Vaupen
Mario: I really love it! I find that it keeps my mental representation of the game and adds new elements that fit very well with the central idea of the game. it's great! How has the experience been working with Josh and Goblin on this edition?! I understand you're more involved with the internal art.
Zach: Thanks! That’s exactly what I’m going for!
Working with Josh and Goblin is always a pleasure. They’re very easy to collaborate with and are both really skilled at generating ideas. They think a lot about what makes the game good and work really hard to ensure it is. There doesn’t feel like a huge difference between this project and previous ones we’ve worked on where I was hired as a freelancer. For the Deluxe Edition I’m a full partner with an equal share of the project, but I was always given a lot of freedom to decide how the images look previously, and it’s the same now. It will be a lot of artwork though. I’m not limiting myself at all in terms of how much I can pack into the book, only time and energy will determine that. Basically I’m doing as much as I can and Josh, Goblin, and Jarrett (our editor and publisher) cheer me on as they all work on their parts of the deluxe edition (and I cheer them on in turn).
Mario: I have not yet had the pleasure of knowing Josh and Jarrett (although with Jarrett I will collaborate translating the second edition of Cairn thanks to Yochai Gal). But, I can only say great things about Nick. It's very exciting to know that you guys are together on this project. I would like to get to know you a little bit as a player. Before you started illustrating role-playing games, how did you get into role-playing games and what types of tabletop role-playing games do you like to play?
Zach: To be honest, I had only a mild awareness of TTRPGs before I started doing illustrations for them. When I was in middle school I played AD&D a couple times but didn’t get into it really. I played magic the gathering for a while after that, and by high school I had completely moved on. I think honestly working on liminal horror and reading the original PDF with the rules and everything that Nick sent me, I was like “wow wait, there are games like this?” That made me aware of OSR and the indie tabletop scene and I realized people were making a lot of cool stuff! And even better, there’s a big zine culture. I’ve been making zines since I was in high school. So it really was a perfect fit for someone who likes to play games, write, draw, and make zines. I don’t get as much time to play as I’d like—especially in person with local friends—and I’m not confident enough to GM myself. But I always have a lot of fun with my Liminal Horror play group (Nick/Goblin Archives GMs, so it’s always a blast), I love playing mothership, I was in a really fun play by post for The Lost Bay for a number of months last year, and I’d really like to try my hand at running Cy_Borg when I have the time and energy to get a session and crew together.
Also awesome that you’re translating Cairn 2e!
Mario: Since 2014 I started to play sporadically tabletop role-playing games. But it was in 2020-2021 when my interest in games went further, I became more interested and I found the first edition of Cairn. That game changed my way of understanding games so much that I translated it into Spanish and then I decided to translate all hacks I could find. That's how I found Liminal Horror and your art. Today I'm here talking to you, I can say that I've done very well hahaha
Although I confess that from now on I envy your table hahaha. From playing with nick as gm and your experience as a player, what can you recommend us for those who start playing Liminal Horror?
Zach: Yeah Cairn makes so much sense to me. Of course I found it in reverse because I checked it out after reading the first Liminal Horror draft, but it’s still my fantasy system of choice. And yeah we have kind of an all star group haha. I don’t take it for granted. In terms of advice for new players of Liminal Horror, I find the best sessions are always the ones where everyone makes the most interesting decisions (as opposed to safe or rational decisions). Do what will make for an interesting story. Winning (which I guess would count as surviving) the scenarios is the least of my concern when I play. I just want to have fun. Don’t be afraid of getting a fallout either. I think a lot of new players view fallout as a punishment, but to me it’s the spice of the system. It’s what transforms each session from being a typical detective scenario into something otherworldly.
Mario: I see you chose the MB system for frog world and you are interested in running cy borg. (btw, I am now chatting with Johan Nohr) What do you think about what he and his group have done with these proposals in terms of game system and art/layout design art?
Zach: I love it! I think Johan is an incredible graphic designer, both for wild out of control designs and also tight and utilitarian designs. I think the layout for the Rotblack Sludge section of MB is my favorite way to have a dungeon laid out. I haven’t gotten to play Mork or Cy Borg unfortunately, but I’ve watched APs and they seem like fun systems to me! Not too far off from typical OSR stuff, but I really like the mood and atmosphere. For Cy_Borg especially, they provide you with so many assets and materials to make your own sessions easily. It’s great all around!
Mario: Johan is fantastic. I love how versatile he is. It's an interview I really enjoyed, just like yours. Well, your full name in Spanish sounds very cool when pronounced. Also, I see you use an alias “Emo Sludge”, what's the story behind that alias?
Zach: My birth last name is Vaupen (pronounced V+open) but when I was 14 I started to go by Zach Hazard because I was so cool and punk and needed everyone to know, and I didn’t like my last name and that people struggle to pronounce it correctly (now I don’t care so much). Over the years I discovered there are other Zach Hazards in the world, and you can google them, and they probably have more claim to the name than I do, so I added Vaupen back onto my name. However “Zach Hazard Vaupen” is too long for usernames and website addresses, so I needed a different “brand name” (so to speak). Simply put, I enjoy emo and sludge metal and at some point I felt like that really spoke to my sensibilities, so I started using Emo Sludge. I really do just think of it as my brand name though. If I release a comic, it’s from Emo Sludge Press. If I release a game, it’s Emo Sludge Games. If I release music, it’s Emo Sludge Records (I’m not a very good musician though). You get the idea.
I like having a couple different names to be known by because it creates more opportunities for people to remember haha.
Mario: Well at least there is an interesting story behind it. I called myself La esquina del rol because it was the only nickname I could think of, and it was available on Twitter hahaha. Well about your comics, what can you tell the Spanish-speaking community that they can find in them? (Btw, La esquina del rol = The role-playing corner)
Zach: My comics usually deal with strange environments/situations and psychological issues. They’re kind of horror and sci-fi, but I think mostly they’re just weird fiction. I’ve been making comic books for almost 20 years, and sadly I don’t have as much energy for it as I used to. It’s very difficult and requires a lot of work to make a comic. I started working on a comic called Therapy Gun at the beginning of the pandemic—a story about a guy who tries to get therapy, but due to lack of adequate insurance, all he qualifies for is a gun—and managed to finish the first issue (about 50 pages I think?) at the end of 2022, but I haven’t had time to work on it since. I really hope I can get back to it sooner than later though. All of my comics are available on either my itchio page or my website and I encourage people to check them out! I was hoping that my patreon would eventually be enough to give me the space I needed to work on comics more, but it’s been stagnating for a while and I’m nowhere near what I would need to do focus on comics more right now. There are more real opportunities for me in TTRPGs and I’m really happy with the work I’m able to do here. That said, comics will always be my first passion.
Mario: Wow! I liked the premise of Therapy Gun. I'll make a note of it.
Before ending the interview I'd like you to share with us your perspective as an artist on this whole situation with AIs.
We see that social media has become training grounds for such things. But I know many friends who thanks to IG, Facebook, Twitter managed to contact clients and spread their work. This whole situation is giving them very complicated dilemmas to spread their portfolio and find future clients. How do you see all this developing for better or worse for our community?
Zach: I think anyone who follows me online knows I have serious misgivings about AI for a number of reasons. When I say AI, I mean the current batch of what’s being called “Generative AI” like ChatGPT and Stable Diffusion. It’s a term that does not advertise what it is at all and is designed to create a lot of hype for a technology with no good use case. I don’t see it ever replacing artists—or even lasting very long to begin with—but it’s being used as a smokescreen to lower the already abysmal rates artists face, and is an excuse for big tech companies to try to remove artists’ inherent copyright to their works—for the good of the world of course wink wink nudge nudge. Beyond the labor issue, generative AI requires an absolutely staggering amount of energy to both train their models and maintain their servers. It’s such a large magnitude that it’s become a huge contributor to climate change and will only get worse. Despite all this, every corporation across the globe is investing billions upon billions of dollars into the (impossible) promises of this technology. The entire US market has taken a strong bet in favor of AI. The belief is that AI will solve the infinite growth problem posed by late stage capitalism. We’re due for another major market crash, and capitalists believe this is our ticket out. However, beyond the fact that AI as it is now is not sustainable from an energy standpoint, no company has figured out how to make AI actually profitable. Consumers aren’t interested enough to pay for it because it’s a novelty item and not a utilitarian solution to anything, and it’s already poisoned much of the internet in a way that is making the web more and more unusable. From my perspective and research, this AI tech bubble is going to create the catastrophic market crash that it’s intending to somehow mitigate, and that’s my biggest fear with AI. My fear is what the future will look like after this devastates the world economy and heating the planet a few more degrees.
Mario: I continue to be amazed at the billions of dollars that continue to be invested in the development of this technology, all that money could solve a lot of things in the world. More important things!!! I don't know where it's all going, I've never thought about it like you say and I think it's a possible scenario. Sometimes I feel like our hands are already tied, I hope at least we are not already in the bathtub feeding our energy to a super powerful AI. Anyway, all I can say is that it's been a pleasure talking to you. I still envy your table and I don't think that feeling will go away anytime soon hahaha. Zach, where can people interested in hiring you contact you, where can they keep an eye on what you're doing and follow your posts in these dark internet times?
Zach: The pleasure is all mine! Thanks for chatting with me. The easiest way to find me and my work is on my website https://emo-sludge.com/ which has my contact info and all my socials are also linked. I also highly recommend signing up for my newsletter through my site if you want to know when Frog World and the Liminal Horror Deluxe Edition are coming out.
Well, he is the amazing Zach Hazard Vaupen! Until next time!
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What a great interview! UwU